Stopped playing 1.035

[Sandra]

Dear all =)

In 1.035 it is almost impossible to get to the top room in the morning spike room to the left of the library where you get the Kings song. The jumps are much too tight and he doesn't always register a wall jump because the blocks in the room as too small. Some of the upper morning stars spins too fast making it almost impossible to land on a block without being thrown off the block right away. This room is not fun.

In acid water room after having used the Kings song, things are really bad. The first jump to get to the first platform is so difficult that one would think double jump is required. The next problem is the falling acid water. This makes this room frustrating and slow. Not only do one have to make 50+ attempts to get to the first platform, but one also can only make one attempt every 10 seconds, as one have to wait for the falling acid water. The falling acid water should at minimum be removed from this room. This room made me stop playing the game. I am not going to spend hours in frustration. I bought the game to be entertained.

In general for all the jump challenge rooms. They should not have acid water either falling or in pools. These rooms are apparently meant to test the players jumping skills, but one can only make, at best 20 attempts, before dying from acid water either falling from the ceiling or landing in the pools. This makes these rooms harder and more tedious in the entire game, as it really takes the enjoyment out of the game. I have skipped all these rooms in the far, where they are not required.

With my current gear, any enemy takes 1 point of damage. Falling acid water take 1 HP, but acid water in pools takes 5 HP every 500ms. Falling in acid water takes somewhere between 20-50 HP as it is so difficult to get out. It it unfair. Falling in acid water should never be that punishing. With my gear it should not take more than 1HP per second since falling acid water takes 1HP.

Can these things be fixed, or are they too much part of the game?

Hugs,
Sandra =)

[James]

Sorry for the frustration! Those rooms weren't meant to be that difficult. I'm wondering if there's anything about your setup that is making it extra difficult for you? Do you use gamepad or keyboard and what sort of Monitor or TV? Thanks!

[Sandra]

Thanks a lot for getting back =)

I am really happy to hear that these rooms (and challenge rooms?) are not intended to be frustrating difficult by a wanted over all game design.

My display is a 24" monitor on my desktop computer.

For the first hours or so playing the game I used a PS3 controller and then tried an Xbox 360, but it was really difficult to make precision jumps and hit while in the air, so I switched to keyboard (real keyboard, not laptop), and that solved the precision issue.

If we for now concentrate on the Kings challenge room. Then the first issue is just getting up on the first platform. That is exceeding difficult and it is not clear if I should jump from the left or the right side of the acid water pool. This is bad game design, as the player might feel that it makes sense that the jump should be eg. on the right side of the pool and therefore make all attempts from there, not knowing it might be impossible.

A proposed fix for this room:

* Lower the first platform so it is obvious that it is the starting point and so getting up on this doesn't require a wall jump.
* Make all the other platforms longer. The platforming is almost impossible.
* Make the landing platforms from a wall jump very easy to land on.
* Make sure there are platforms below the places where the player is most likely to fall down. Ie. from a wall jump or flying enemy that knocked one off. The feeling of having to start all over because of unfair platforming is unbearable.
* No falling acid water. This only slows the room down. Not being allowed to solve it as quick as you like is a punishment. Having to wait 5-10 seconds between each attempt really unbearable.
* No acid water pools. The player should not have to grind for health (leave the room to find a save room) and have the flying enemies appear again...

A side effect of 1.035 is now one have to press the back dash button to parachute. There are two issues with this.

1. The player have not been trained in 1.035 that the parachute should be used for long distance jumps. I had to watch a "Let's play" to figure this out. I thought these platforms just required pixel perfect jumping. This was not an issue in 1.030 as it happened automatically. But now the core mechanics have changed, and the entire game should ideally be play tested all over again, as more rooms might be "broken". Think of replacing your game engine the day before publishing the game.
2. The back dash button is for combat, so players place the button where it makes sense for combat. I have played 12+ hours of having this button layout, but it is impossible to use for platforming. The result is that I back dash off the platforms, and you can imagine how that feels after spending 15+ minutes just getting up the first platform. Since I play on the DRM free version, I could downgrade to 1.030 and hope to complete this room, get to a save point, and then go back to 1.035. This room is easier on 1.030 for sure, as one doesn't have the back dash/parachute issue.

A take away point for your next game is how a change in core mechanics can render all previous game testing obsolete.

What do you think?

Hugs,
Sandra =)

[DarkLordSen]

In all the runs I've done, I have never had an issue with the room you're describing. Matter of fact I'll load up a Nightmare run right now and see if I can figure out what you mean. If I remember correctly, in a previous version you requested the parachute be moved from the jump button to something else? Now that it is, you're having trouble with it? I'm confused. Please post the seed and a snapshot of the room you're talking about. I'd love to help troubleshoot.

[Sandra]

I am sure you can complete a nightmare run of the game. You are clearly a very skilled and experienced gamer. I play on easy in comparison. You completing the game in nightmare mode doesn't reflect how an novice player experiences the game for the first time. And here "for the first time" is important. You should look at me as the play tester that Chasm didn't have during development =)

Yes, it was me that had issues with wall jumping and parachute, and I think you are right in, I proposed it being moved to its own button. Since I play on keyboard, it would be easy to give parachute its own button, but I suppose it got mapped to back dash as there were no free buttons let on the controllers?

The rooms I have been talking about are

https://youtu.be/BMXt3L8VoRc?t=12m6s

and

https://youtu.be/QMS1xGKBtG8?t=4m40s

where the last one is the one that stopped me from playing. These videos are of course not me playing =)

[DarkLordSen]

No worries I just wanted to try max difficulty to really stress test the issue as much as I could, and indeed I did find that room to be quite rough. There is a bit of trick that first room I found handy. Try baiting the imps down to the exit off to the right and take them down with shurikens and melee attacks. This trick can be used in the second room as well you just have to be mindful of the falling ooze. I'm actually surprised you didn't mention the room with the spinning spike balls over the top of the super small platforms surrounded by ooze where I personally find that board to be a major pain.

One thing I will mention is that in order to traverse that part of the Keep to begin with, you do need the Parachute. So where the game doesn't necessarily train you to use it, it most certainly brings it to the players attention that they will surely be using the parachute throughout that next area as a potential level design gimmick. Think classic Mega Man. I guess the best part is that easy mode enemies only deal 1 damage so it's just the terrain you need to watch out for the most. Don't give up! It's definitely possible. I'd say perhaps try using a controller? As blasphemes as that might sound haha sorry.

As for the mapping issue, I do believe button mapping is in the works? The game should eventually feature both kb & controller mapping. I think at least? I imagine the switch version will, so that's when the other versions will get that option? Not too sure. If so there could be a "TYPE A" feature, where Parachute is attached to jump and "TYPE B" attached to back dash? I personally didn't mind Parachute on jump, but it could also be attached to R2 or L2. Only problem then being you wouldn't be able to play with an SNES pad. That could also free up the option to map it to another key on keyboard.

Either way I'm sorry you're having issues and I hope future runs go smoother! Good luck!

[Sandra]

I am actually glad to hear that such a skilled player such as you find the room rough =)

In my opinion the falling ooze should just be removed completely from the game. It only slows down the player and adds latency, as the player have to wait for it.

It would be easy mode also affected the level layouts? i don't know if this have been done before in order games, but that would be highly appreciated from my point of view =)

I am considering getting a Switch Pro controller and PowerA Gamecube comtroller (released 1st Nov). Not sure if this would ease the situation?